I just got my Oscilloscope, so I can play more fun with my DIY stuff. Ok, let’s start with some basic “game”, to find the inner and outer foil of a capacitor.
Basically, most of the capacitor, has what we call the inner foil and outer foil. Because, most of capacitor’s construction is based on the winding of paper or other conductor (silver, copper, gold, etc), so we will have a start position (the inner foil) and the finish position (the outer foil).
Although for the film type capacitor, it’s just fine to connect positive or negative to the inner or outer foil. But due to some reason, it’s preferable to connect the outer foil to negative side or to the “nearest” negative side (input side on coupling application).
Why? Because the outer foil will catch the outside interferences. So better if you can put this outer foil to the place nearest to ground or negative pole. So it could completely transfer those unwanted noise faster to the place where it should belong – the ground.
Some capacitor like Audio Note, Jensen, Auricap, Hovland, VCap, etc usually marks their capacitor with different color lead or print some black line to mark the negative side or input in the coupling application. Some other popular capacitor, like Mundorf, doesn’t seem to care about this, means no marks at all. So you got to check it by your own. Other capacitor like Duelund, which uses the Stacked Foil design, I believe doesn’t have any polarity (it’s not winded, but stacked).
How to do the test with Oscilloscope? Simple by testing both leads, and give some “interference” outside the capacitor (touch by hand or put some electric field interference e.g. high voltage cable, etc). The side with higher noise, means the outer foil.
Below are some picture from my own measurement on some capacitors.
Audio Note Oil Filled Mylar Capacitor. The black line marking on the capacitor’s body means the negative or input side. We can see the noise is quite big if we put the positive probe on the side which has black line marking.
Lower noise if we put on the probe on the opposite way.
Mundorf Supreme Capacitor doesn’t have marking, so you must measure one by one to confirm.
For sure, lower noise if we place the probe on the opposite way.
Jensen Copper Foil Paper Tube puts same black marking as Audio Note. And my observation also confirms the black marking side is the outer foil or input side.
Lower noise for sure, if you test on the opposite way.
Old Auricap, black lead means the input side or negative. I also confirm this to be true.
Lower noise if we try testing the red lead.
That’s all my first game with oscilloscope. Will observe what I can do more with my new Oscilloscope in the future 😉
arie
April 25, 2010 19:11osiloskopnya keren…. beli berapa bro??
Jimmy Auw
April 25, 2010 20:35Saya beli dari luar, kalo di sini mungkin bisa 5jt-an.
Thanks.
arie
April 26, 2010 23:14lumayan juga yah.. harganya. kapan2 di review bro osiloskopnya
sofianirawan
April 27, 2010 14:12ko jimmy mau nanya neee di daerah mana ya di negara hongkong dan singapore buat belanja komponen ( resistor dan elco )yg murah dan lengkap
Jimmy Auw
April 27, 2010 23:18Waduh kurang tahu lokasi detailnya bro. Saya lebih sering belanja online sih.
Thanks.
sofianirawan
April 28, 2010 04:31belanja on line nya via fb or?????bro tolong dunk info nya belanja on line nya dimana aja.tx
Jimmy Auw
April 28, 2010 11:32Ya banyak bro. Bisa di partconnexion, percyaudio, ebay, angelainstrument, diyhifisupply, thl-audio, etc.
Kalo FB ga ngerti deh apaan tuh.
Thanks.
Arie
April 28, 2010 12:51Mantaf Pak Jimmy, nanti saya check JPT saya di rumah, apakah ‘arah’ nya sudah bener hehe.. btw, kalo untuk fungsi bypass, apakah perlu arah yang benar juga?
Salam,
Arie
Jimmy Auw
April 28, 2010 21:31Silakan dicoba bolak-balik Om Arie hehehe… 🙂
Dan Haines
April 30, 2010 07:25Very interesting to see the difference on an oscilloscope. Very worthwhile post, thank you!
I read that there is also a sound difference depending on which end of a resister is toward the input or negative. It would be interesting to know if that could be sorted out with an oscilloscope rather than a listening test which takes much longer. Or do you know another shortcut?
Dan
Arie
April 30, 2010 12:53Alatnya besar gak pak Jimmy?
Bawa donk ke padepokan hehe…
salam,
Arie
Robert
April 30, 2010 22:55Hmm, your conclusions contradict what Mundorf told me about the Supreme caps when I asked them how to tell which side was the outer foil:
“Very simple…just follow the imprint’s reading direction. It leads to the lead connected to the outer foil.
Thank you for using our caps. Enjoy the music!
Best regards,
Norbert Mundorf”
Jimmy Auw
May 3, 2010 20:37Hi Dan,
Please check my new post.
Thanks.
Jimmy Auw
May 3, 2010 20:37Bisa diatur itu Om Arie hehehe.
Thanks.
Jimmy Auw
May 3, 2010 20:38Well, I believe the real measurement than what they said.
They could be wrong, accidentally off course, not in purpose, but the machine will tell you the truth.
Thanks.
Armand DiEleonora
May 11, 2010 20:40Hi Jimmy and thanks for the post!
Have you tried testing multiple Mundorfs to see if the shield orientation is the same or random with respect to the writing on the cap?
Jimmy Auw
May 14, 2010 20:29Hi Armand,
Will do, later. I have some Mundorf on stock.
Thanks.
Dan Haines
September 12, 2010 04:10I tested about 20 Mundorf Supreme caps, and only one tested reverse of the others. The input is usually the end with the M in Mundorf.
Armand
October 6, 2010 22:54I reversed the Mundorf Silver/Gold couplers in my Cary power amp according to your findings (I don’t have a scope any longer to check caps individually) and I’m convinced the background is quieter. More importantly, a slight brightness/hardness disappeared. I wonder how these unknown polarity issues might have influenced the outcome of cap comparisons I’ve read recently on the web?
Auw Jimmy
October 6, 2010 23:23Hi Armand,
Glad if you get better result.
I don’t have any comment about the others comparison.
Thanks.
borgs
October 21, 2010 21:51wow..good job. would love to test my caps too. ur oscilloscope looks damn high end. not the old school CRT screen.
what brand is this? agilent..
how much did you get it for?
any idea where i can order it
thanks
Auw Jimmy
October 21, 2010 23:57Hi,
This is “cheap” one, named Rigol. Cant afford Agilent…
You can search online to get yourself one.
thanks.
borgs
October 25, 2010 15:31so if the outer foil(has higher noise), we use
1. input coupling at the outer foil
2. passive xover input at inner foil
correct?
thanks
Auw Jimmy
October 26, 2010 00:42I think for #2, we still use outer foil as input.
Thanks.
borgs
October 26, 2010 00:48got a reply from Jensen Capacitors
“Black marking is low voltage side” – jensen
“thanks for the reply.
so if its using for signal coupling, then the black marking is the input
But if use for speakers passive as a bypass, then black marking its the output.
correct?” me
“yes” -jensen
*kind of confuse here..
Auw Jimmy
October 26, 2010 09:29Hi Borgs,
Please verify your application. For speaker in passive, did you configure in series or parallel? You are talking about “bypass” (or decoupling), so we assume you are configuring the caps in parallel configuration. So the black marking will go to the negative side or output. But if you are configuring the caps in series (or coupling, example as 6dB HPF), then the caps black marking should go as input.
Eventually, you can try which side works best for your. All we are talking about is just good in theory.
Thanks.
Roman Clay
February 6, 2011 23:25Jimmy,
In checking the capacitors for the outer foil, what settings do you use on your scope? I’ve had some success in doing this with small value caps (less than 1uF), but do not see much noise difference in higher values. Your display seems to be very clear in showing high and low noise differences, regardless of the value.
Thanks,
Roman
Auw Jimmy
February 7, 2011 09:08Hi Roman,
Just use the lowest mV setting available, on my scope around 5mV (IIRC).
Thanks.
Joseph Pagan
August 29, 2011 11:37Roman, a friend of mine and I had the same problem. I wish I could figure this out. I know that having the caps in the “wrong” direction can affect the sound negatively – I accidentally did it in a speaker crossover with auricaps. (They’re marked)
Ray
October 3, 2011 10:44Mundorf told me the same thing.. read from left to right (+) to (-)
Ray
October 3, 2011 12:55Jimmy it is stated,
But due to some reason, it’s preferable to connect the outer foil to negative side or to the “nearest†negative side (input side on coupling application).
Then it’s stated,
Jensen Copper Foil Paper Tube puts same black marking as Audio Note. And my observation also confirms the black marking side is the >outer foil or input side<.
When you say 'input side' , what do you mean by this if this is the outer foil side?
I am of the understanding that the 'input side' would be the 'inner side of the cap (+)' and the output would be the outer foil side (-) ???…
Any info appreciated…Thanks
Auw Jimmy
October 3, 2011 15:53Hi Ray,
Theoritically, input side in coupling = outer foil of the capacitor = black marking (if any) = negative side in power supply.
But the call is yours 🙂
Thanks.
ton
December 13, 2011 22:45Jimmy,
Do you have repeated your Oscilloscope session after 100 up to 150 hours of break-in? I wonder if the results are the same. I think that capacitors have the mobility to change to the correct direction.
Please inform me if you have repeated the sesion and I am looking out to the results. Good luck with your site which I try to follow. Thanks for the interesting subjects.
with my best regards, ton.
Auw Jimmy
December 13, 2011 23:22Hi Ton,
The inner and outer foil are physically there. So this will not change (and you cant change also). Dont get yourself confused with cable orientation which happens in ‘sub-atomic’ level – which somehow could be changed.
Thanks.
Johnson Wu
April 1, 2012 07:20Greetings. Any idea which is the outer foil side of k40y9 and ft3 Russian caps? Thanks.
Auw Jimmy
April 2, 2012 21:54Hi,
I could give a try, but not quite sure if they are consistent. From what I heard, they are not as consistent as higher class capacitor.
Thanks.
johnson Wu
April 6, 2012 10:00I was able to ID the outer foil of an FT3 using a scope, it’s the top lead with the cap held upright corresponding to lettering.
K40y9…. very difficult, I tried to measure 0.47 and 0.15 samples, same noise level which was surprisingly low compared to a Jensen or an Auricap.
Auw Jimmy
April 7, 2012 23:13Hi Johson,
From what I heard, some FT3 are inconsistent. I could be wrong, though.
Thanks.
Eric
April 8, 2012 19:44Nice write up! I was wondering if you knew the foil out for a Russian k75-10 cap?
Auw Jimmy
April 9, 2012 11:19Hi Eric,
Well, I don’t have K75 on hand at this moment. Sorry.
Thanks.
Finn Mølmen
June 13, 2012 18:27Hi, Jimmy,
I am still confused. According to Mundorf, they say “Please use the beginning of the writing of the capacitor as a positive pole and the end of the writing as a negative.” But will Mundorf’s negative be your outer winding? And what is the “input side on coupling application”? I am replacing coupling caps in my Velleman K8020 tubed pre-amp. Should I put the end of the writing on the Mundorf caps closest to the tubes or closest to the output RCAs? Thank you for helping me out!
Auw Jimmy
June 13, 2012 21:59Hi Finn,
Mundorf doesn’t mark the orientation on their capacitor, so hardly for me to comment. So my finding in here could vary from one to another.
Good to ask Mundorf themselves and follow if you believe them, our use you scope if you have it.
Normally, negative is the outer winding, and also used for input in coupling. This is for me, but always YMMV.
Thanks.
dvb-projekt
July 23, 2012 21:03Hi Jimmy,
if i understand you right, there is no orientation issue at the Duelund caps, because of the Virtual Stack Foil design, correct? Regardless if you use them parallel or seriel?
Best
Oliver
Auw Jimmy
July 25, 2012 21:31Hi Oliver,
Yes, this is true for all Stacked Foil design.
Thanks.
Keph
March 15, 2013 20:23Hi Jimmy,
Please help me in which orientation must I install the Mundorf SIO in my Leben CS300XS. In my understanding is that the letter M should be closer to the 12AX7 tube and the silver/oil should be closer to the EL84 tube. Am I right?
Thank You,
Kevin
Auw Jimmy
March 17, 2013 22:48Hi Keph,
Mundorf doesn’t mark the inner or outer. So I can’t confirm their orientation.
But if we assume they always consistent with their design, I think what you have said is correct.
Thanks.
Keph
March 18, 2013 15:50Hi Jimmy,
Thanks alot. mail me if you need some stuffs/parts, check Taobao.com im an Indonesian living in Beijing.
Cheers!!!
gary
March 31, 2013 20:20Hi Jimmy:
Great write up. I was hoping you could help me out. I recently bought a dso2oo nano pocket oscilloscope hoping i could use this to determine the outer foils in some MKP and MUNDORF capacitors. I however dont know how to set it up to take such readings. What i did do was install ben-f firmware v3.64 onto it as generally from what i have read so far is the way to go. any help from yourself or anyone for that matter would be much appreciated.
Auw Jimmy
April 1, 2013 12:52Hi Gary,
Please make sure it can read low voltage. I don’t know how low your oscilloscope can do?
Thanks.
gary
April 1, 2013 19:03Hi Jimmy:
What would you consider an appropriate voltage to test the capacitor?
thanks.
Auw Jimmy
April 2, 2013 00:17Hi Gary,
Your scope must be sensitive enough to detect the ‘interference’, maybe around 5mV.
Thanks.
Marc
August 8, 2013 00:56Hi,
I’m putting together a phono pre and using 6 mundorf mcap zn caps.
It would be great if you could help me with the following:
Does the polarity you mention also apply to these caps?
Four of the caps are coupling so I guess I should connect the – side or opposite to the M from mundorf but two of them are used for the signal to go through (I’m an amateur at this!), how should I connect these?
Again thank you very much for any help.
Best
Marc
Jose Rodriguez (@changeingyou)
August 8, 2013 01:56Great info on testing caps. What type of scope do you have, I would like to get one to check caps and measure 60hz noise on power supply after I learn to use it, lol.
Auw Jimmy
August 8, 2013 16:17Hi Marc,
Yes I believe ZN should have polarity also. But unfortunately, Mundorf doesnt mention it. There is no way to check, except to have the scope to measure it.
Thanks.
Auw Jimmy
August 8, 2013 16:17Hi Jose,
Any scope will do.
Thanks.
Jose Rodriguez (@changeingyou)
August 13, 2013 03:16I used a Tektronix 2236 with 2mv sensitivity at a friends and using the same leads you have I could not tell any changes as in your scope. Do you have an AC cord next to cap or amplifier? I got a 7603 but it does not power up now. It has about a .2mv sensitivity.
Auw Jimmy
August 13, 2013 11:09Hi Jose,
Are you sure you have set it correctly?
Thanks.
Ray P
September 30, 2013 13:45Jimmy
I am installing for the 3rd time caps in my x-over.
On the Mundorf you have with the oscilloscope the better of the two finding is… the neg. connector at the left of the cap (reading left to right the M CAP) is the outer foil the right would be the inner foil ??
Mundorf say’s left to right + to – ???
Could you help me out , would be most appreciated!!
Ray P
Auw Jimmy
September 30, 2013 19:17Hi Ray,
If you dont have the scope, better follow what Mundorf says. Because it could be vary as mine is not the same with yours (different batch production, etc).
Thanks.
Alfred
October 2, 2013 10:18“Hi Borgs,
Please verify your application. For speaker in passive, did you configure in series or parallel? You are talking about “bypass†(or decoupling), so we assume you are configuring the caps in parallel configuration. So the black marking will go to the negative side or output. But if you are configuring the caps in series (or coupling, example as 6dB HPF), then the caps black marking should go as input.
Eventually, you can try which side works best for your. All we are talking about is just good in theory.
Thanks.”
Pak Jimmy,
jadi untuk audionote :
– kalo untuk bypass (paralel) sisi yang ada tanda garis (sisi kanan) di hubungkan dengan negatif
– kalo di seri (pasif 6db) jalur input masuk sisi yang bergaris (sisi kanan)
begitu ?
Auw Jimmy
October 2, 2013 11:15Benar, Pak Alfred.
Thanks.
Alfred
October 2, 2013 14:58Thanks Pak Jimmy,
saya lagi nyoba kasih warna ke speaker, pakai audionote 0,1 mylar, saya paralel di kabel speaker / input terminal speaker
pernah coba Pak?
Auw Jimmy
October 3, 2013 23:18Hi Pak Alfred,
Belum pernah coba Pak. Pada dasarnya dia akan berfungsi sebagai filter saja.
Thanks.
Erik
January 23, 2014 11:30As far as I know, the low impedance side is identified by the probe ground when the scope shows least noise. The orientation depends on it’s use in the circuit — for coupling preamp to amp, the low impedance side (the negative) is connected to the amp input.
In the feedback loop of an op-amp RIAA circuit, the low impedance side (the negative) is connected the output of the opamp.
Auw Jimmy
January 23, 2014 13:46Hi Erik,
The negative side = outer foil is identified when the side is connected to the positive test probe. The side which has higher noise = the outer foil (it captures the interference more).
This negative side = outer foil should be connected to the nearest ground.
In the case of preamp coupling output, the negative side should be connected to preamp circuit output, while the positive side should be connected to your preamp RCA output (where your interconnect will be plugged in and send the signal to your amp).
Off course which side nearer to ground could vary, based on your circuit.
If you have scope on hand, you have tried yourself. You can use capacitor that is already marked (like AudioNote, Jensen, Auricap, etc).
Thanks.
Timothy Hoang
August 14, 2014 15:59For those who are still confused.
Mundorf M-Cap Supreme:
Ground (negative) is on the left side of the word “M” of M-Cap. Inner layer (positive) is on the right side near the word “supreme”. It’s goes exactly as how Jimmy tests it.
Cheers,
Tim
Robert
April 8, 2015 04:54M- Cap Supreme Silver-oil All 14 pcs of different badge production All ware : opposite as it it in Jimmy test
Those ware the same of All my Mundorfs 20 Pcs silver oil / silver Gold and Silver Gold Oil. Of different production periods from 2010 till 2014!
Duelund VSF and Alcohol Cast 100v ware where the D- from Duelund starts the innermost foil. The last D letter from Duelund is the outermost foil.
Jantzen Audio Superior Z-Cap inner foil is as Duelund case. So innerfoi is on the side where J- from word Janzen starts.
Intertechnik Audyn True Copper Cap MKP 630VDC – this cap was the only one that was different story. 4 psc ware the came case as Jantzen and Duelund. And 2 pcs ware the opposite direction. This was all folks. I hoop it will help you.
The