After you read this, perhaps you would expect a better system to test the capacitors. So today, I visit a friend, and test the capacitors on his system. We can call him, Mr. X. Here is some brief of Mr. X audio system.
Below is the power amplifier. Powered with RS241, RE604,and 6J5. Rectifier is RGN 2504 (later we try Klangfilm RGN 4004). OT is Tango. Currently powered with Jensen Copper Foil Capacitor and old NOS Western Electric capacitors. FYI, RS241 is claimed by most audiophiles as best sounding tube amplifier (forget 300B or 2A3) – and it’s really proven, if you have chance to hear it. This is an ultimate Single Ended tube amplifier (if you really know what do RS241, RE604, and 6J5 really mean to an audiophile).
We move to pre-amplifier section. We have Tungsol 26 in Globe (rare, eh?) with (I think) RGN2504 there. Also, one of the finest pre-amplifier.
Conrad-Johnson Phono Stage.
A turntable as source? Why not? We did enjoy the Norah Jones (Feels Like Home) from the Vinyl.
Audio Research CD7 as Digital source.
Lowther EX4 in Fidelio enclosure. Well, it’s time for a full range 🙂
Btw, do you notice a “special” appearance from this EX4?
Tweaking time!!!
A final battle, between Jensen Copper Foil Paper Tube and Duelund CAST PIO.
A complete system appearance for testing the capacitors.
How do they sound it this system? Let’s start.
This classic Jensen Pure Copper Foil is used as a benchmark for current popular – most used – coupling capacitor. It has warm sound, good vocal, adequate treble, but definitely less detail and sounds too crowded (if you have ever heard the others on this capacitor comparison session). For its affordable price, around US$ 73.9/pairs, this is the one that you should try if you expect a warm sound but with adequate treble.
The highest level from Mundorf, the MCap Supreme Silver/Gold/Oil. Not much different from yesterday findings, this capacitor has good staging and good emphasize in high frequency notes. While the oil inside this capacitor will still maintain the vocal from becoming to “cool” as the VCap. If you expect a live sound, while still expecting an adequate mid-vocal (don’t expect it would be too sweet), then this could be yours. But remember, with US$ 177.2/pairs, this is considered as serious capacitor!
This VCap TFTF is praised as one of the best signal capacitor. I think I have to agree that this is the most revealing capacitor. Teflon is well known as expensive capacitor, no surprise if VCap sells its 1uF/600VDC TFTF at US$ 279.98/pairs. But sorry I have to say, on our current testing system, this VCap can’t fight much with others in terms of musicality. Not because this is a bad capacitor (someone will throw something to my head if I say word “bad” for an US$ 279.98/pairs capacitors), but simply it doesn’t match with our testing system. Think like this: You already have a salty noodle, then you add some more salty soup. How does it taste? We already have a quite revealing system with RS241, with addition of VCap, it will become even more revealing (and no longer enjoyable). This is the thing that shouldn’t happen in audio. Use VCap on “dull” system and it will work best! I’m thinking of 300B which somehow has too warm vocal and less clarity – with VCap – I believe it will work best to reveal 300B weakness. And perhaps on pre-amp with 5687 or 6DJ8 tubes which most of the times – shares similar character with 300B. Back to our system, VCap sounds too thin, cool, and less emotion (we hear the detail, but we don’t hear the music). We admire its detail and revealing character (I think it’s the best compared with others in this round up), but simply not a perfect couple for our current testing system.
Jensen Pure Copper Foil Paper Tube is the latest generation of Jensen. I think, it shares similar build “technique“ (construction) with Duelund CAST PIO (similar color appearance to). According to our source at Duelund (see the note at the end of this entry), Duelund has different internal construction and different material inside – despite the similarity of appearance with other capacitor. My subjective sound test proves this to be true. Back to the Jensen Pure Copper Foil Paper Tube, it has excellent musicality. Vocal is very warm and “swing” following the music. But one thing we have to underline (after extensive testing with Duelund CAST PIO), this Jensen has less resolution (not a real treble cut off, but just less detail). Just like a picture with too high compression. Overall, both Jensen Pure Copper Foil Paper Tube and Duelund CAST PIO will be looked similar in general. But after you zoom it in, you can see that the Duelund CAST PIO has better resolution. Duelund CAST PIO will maintain it sharp picture while the Jensen already shows garbled picture with same zoom-in ratio. The different may vary, depends on the music and your equipments. If your music has a lot of brass and cymbal or other micro details sounds, the different could be very significant (like on our Carmen Gomez Meets Kharma track). But the different also could be in a “small” margin (like if you are a vocal lover of Ingram Washington track). To avoid any confusedness, let me explain the above phrase a little bit: On a “not to extreme” resolution system, and if your background are a mid-vocal tube lover tubey sound – and better if never ever heard Duelund before), the Jensen Pure Copper Foil Paper Tube should be fine for you. We are talking about most tube fans which currently prefers Audio Note or Jensen on their coupling application (on my experience, they never heard Duelund before). With its “affordable price” (again, the definition of “affordable” here only works if you are comparing it with US$ 800 Duelund), the Jensen Pure Copper Foil Paper Tube is a very nice capacitor (and a nice upgrade from your old Jensen). It just doesn’t make sense to spend US$ 800 capacitors on US$ 500 pre-amp, right? (although some did, like me >.<). And eventually, we have to find option for this “less critical application”, and the option could be this Jensen Pure Copper Foil Paper Tube. If before you love Audio Note or Jensen “classic” Pure Copper Foil and now prefer to choose in between, then you can’t go wrong with this Jensen Pure Copper Foil Paper Tube (US$ 173.9/pairs). It’s a well worth jump from the “classic” Jensen.
No surprise, with around US$ 822/pairs, this should sound special. Compared with Jensen Pure Copper Foil Paper Tube, this Duelund CAST PIO definitely has more resolution and better staging. Compared with VCap, this has better and sweet mid-vocal. Not as revealing as VCap, but the details are there – without have to be over aggressive. Is it too forgiven character? Not really, since every details are maintained perfectly, not more, not less. Cymbal is cymbal, full with its micro harmonics. If almost all capacitor has its own speciality, whether it’s emphasized on sweet vocal or in high notes, then this Duelund simply has none to be proud of. It’s just maintain the music and all the micro details, included staging and layering. The low is soft, layered, natural. The mid-vocal is just right. The high is very detail, but not sharp or over emphasized. If I have to use words to explain, I would say “Natural”, “Resolution”, and “Pricey” to describe the Duelund CAST PIO.
I think, you can (should) use Duelund if you already have a “near perfect” system. I would suggest a VCap for a “dull” system, a MCap S/G/O to get a live sound (average), and a Jensen “classic” or Paper Tube in a too revealing system. But Duelund? Use it if you already have a “near fine” system, and Duelund will help to add its “perfect touch” on it.
About Duelund’s price tag (which sooooo expensive, the 1 uF/630VDC Silver Foil version sold around US$ 1000 each!), I have to agree with Tempo Electric and I quote them as below:
In an age of $17,000 phono cartridges, $27,000 speaker cables, and $120,000 turntables, he could be right. On the other hand, silver bullion has been selling in the range of 10 Euros (US$13.00) per ounce for years now. How much silver is really in these things, anyway?
If you could afford US$ 9000 CD Player, US$ 10,000 Power Amplifier, or even US$ 5000 for a turntable cartridge and another US$ 20,000 for speakers, why dont you spend US$ 800 for capacitor? Don’t ask me 😉 Sighhh… But still, few hundreds bucks only for a capacitor is considered “insane”…
Added 18 August 2009:
Frederik at Duelund Coherent Audio emailed me and said that Jensen Pure Copper Foil Paper Tube and Duelund CAST PIO are not the same in terms of construction. I completely agree that we (I) never know whether they are the same or not inside (well, no one knows except the manufacturer). But from a standard customer point of view, they both have similar brown/black color tube, same Copper Foil, and same Paper In Oil type capacitor. I think it’s natural if most people would think, perhaps, they both share similar “technique” or “construction” (both from Danish and both “are” Jensen). But from the ears point of view, definitely, they both sound different.
Added 21 August 2009:
Frederik at Duelund Coherent Audio emailed me to clarify the question whether Duelund is made by Jensen. You can read the detail explanation here:
Cooperation with Jensen Capacitors
From time to time, we get the question if a Duelund capacitor is simply a rebranded Jensen capacitor, as is so often seen in the industry. The short answer is “absolutely not!”, whereas the more detailed response is that we do collaborate with Jensen Capacitors, but the products themselves have nothing in common with a standard Jensen capacitor besides being a “wet” capacitor.
ScottG
August 19, 2009 03:03Thank you for the review!
(I submitted comments with links in the general comment section.)
ScottG
August 19, 2009 09:35Very nice capacitor grouping!
Question: what is “sweet� I can understand the clarity and definition is superior with the teflon capacitor, but I’m not quite “getting†what is superior with the better paper and oils. More 3d imaging? Better harmonic saturation?
The one capacitor that probably should have been included was the Jupiter condenser capacitor (..despite tempo electrics marginal rating). I wouldn’t be surprised if it was very similar to the paper tube Jensen copper while being about half the cost.
Here are some additional links:
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/300B.htm
http://www.dhtrob.com/impressies/jupiter_en.shtml
http://www.dhtrob.com/impressies/super_e_cap_en.shtml
http://www.vhaudio.com/21capacitorshootout.pdf
Again, thank you very much for the testing!
Jimmy Auw
August 19, 2009 09:35Hi ScottG,
It’s a little bit difficult to define “sweet†by word (perhaps due to my limited vocab in English). I think we can also use “warm†or “mellow†(but not “dullâ€), which you can “taste†the lips, tongue, even singer’s breathe when singing. I think this refers to better harmonic saturation also. Like comparing a 300B tube vocal vs solid state vocal. Perhaps with this you can understand what do I mean by “sweetâ€.
We can’t make a general assumption about all Paper-In-oil Caps, since not all of them have similar sound. Let’s say Audio Note vs Jensen Paper-In-Oil. Even they both same Paper-In-Oil, but Jensen has better high frequency tones, while perhaps Audio Note has even “sweeter†vocal. More different if you try Jensen Paper Tube or Duelund.
I have tried Jupiter once… but this caps had gone away long ago (I sold it to my friend). Perhaps just not my cup of tea. If I could recall my memory correctly, the tones of this Jupiter is between Audio Note Copper and Jensen “classic†Copper. To Jensen Paper Tube? I can’t confirm, but I don’t think so.
And as my caveat has been written, the result my subject to the listener preference. YMMV.
Thanks for the links.
ScottG
August 19, 2009 13:50Thank you for the reply Jimmy!
I can understand that 300B vs. solid state (..well, good solid state).
You could well be correct about the Jupiter capacitor. Note though that their materials/mechanical formulation has changed (..though for all I know it could be worse).
http://www.jupitercondenser.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=34&Itemid=60
Anyway, again a big thank you!
(BTW, loved the use of the CD cases for the switch face-plate.)
Tedjo
August 20, 2009 01:16very nice reviews…and poisons indeed…:)
and hope there will be battle of “Si Culun/winner of caps” Vs LOT!
denging
August 20, 2009 14:37bang jim, what does this (both from Danish and both “are†Jensen) mean anyway?
Jimmy Auw
August 20, 2009 14:52Exactly what you’ve read. Both are from Danish and both are Jensen made capacitor (but surely different construction/material which affect the sound resulted from it).
Thanks.
denging
August 21, 2009 11:47thanks bang jim, wow, i just knew that duelund is maade by jensen…
Jimmy Auw
August 21, 2009 12:08Please mark the word “collaborate”… So not really a Jensen one.
Thanks.
Damar.N
August 21, 2009 13:32wah..pak jimmy..emang mantep deh kalo soal audio..oia..saya mohon bantuan nih di chip (audio ttg “cara menghilangkan “hum””)
Benny Benyamin Mulky
August 23, 2009 03:02With that damn prices… it must be damn good capacitors…!!!! ^_^ Very nice post Mr.Jimmy, your blog give me a lot of information. I usually visit your blog for inspiration… Thanks a lot.
Contentnya I love u full…. bangetttt… 🙂
Dino Ary
August 24, 2009 23:39Hehehe… You’re the Man!
Thanks for sharing the lovely sounds of those capacitors in Mosfet HQ at Bintaro few of days ago, Brother!
Big Thanks!!
Jimmy Auw
August 25, 2009 09:11No sweat, bro…
Erik HD
August 26, 2009 23:28pak Jimmy,
beli jensen yang paper wrap beli di mana ya?
sy sudah cari2 di internet kok susah ya
Jimmy Auw
August 28, 2009 21:25Saya ambil di partsconnexion.com waktu itu.
Marc5036
August 31, 2009 18:45Great capacitors battle, thanks!
But for the V-cap, 200 hours breaking seem very light to judge it. It is often recommanded by those wich test it arround 400 hours minimum…and it could be sound a little warm after that on vocal…
Jimmy Auw
September 1, 2009 00:32I know that some Teflon based requests for 400 hours, but I think it’s overkill! I doubt it would change much from 200 to 400 hours.
Anyway, the result was based on my system – which perhaps didn’t quite match well with Teflon based. YMMV. But if you are looking for a revealing caps, then VCap or Mundorf S/G/O could be your perfect mate.
Thanks.
Marc5036
September 1, 2009 16:06Do you have connect the v-cap in respect with mark?
If not, you could try to reverse “polarity” of the v-cap.
See “test set-up” in capacitor shoot-out on tempo electric web site (you have certainly already read this). Personnaly i have mundor s/g/ oil in my amplifier and i’am happy of the result. There is also asc x386-s in power supply and this seem to be a goob combo with this mundorf… I don’t know the v-cap capacitor but i look it with interest for my phono stage.
But it’s thrue, capacitor appreciation depend of balance wished for the hifi system.
PS: Try to break-in v-cap again if you can, and speak about it with 600 hours old, i think that the result will be a bit better.
Jimmy Auw
September 1, 2009 19:50Yes, I always follow the capacitor mark, as suggested, even sometime I look for the polarity by myself.
S/G/O is a nice one. Even in my system, this caps is better than VCap. S/G/O still has the musicality (perhaps due to oil inside), while VCap is too revealing (or analytical?). I have used Mundorf S/G/O for my several application and it never disappoints me.
I soon to build my phono stage and I will give them a try. But I doubt I would like it. Phono stage tends to love vintage sound. I think Jensen or S/G/O could be there perfectly (have no budget to apply a Duelund again).
If someone says that you need a 600 hours, I think it’s not a “break-in” time, but “force to be getting used time”. After 600 hours, your ears will adapt to the sound of it. This is definitely not a break-in time. I have done around 200 hours ++ (around 230-240). With 200 hours ++, I think I already heard around 75% of VCap. Actually I have heard VCap in my friend’s pre-amp before – he already used it for 1.5 years, and it doesn’t sound to different with my current 200 hours ++ findings – in terms of revealing sound.
Oh don’t forget, if you insist 600 hours break-in time, do you calculate how much “cost” (electricity bills?) which I have to pay before I can hear the real sound of it? Perhaps the cost-over-enjoyable will be the same with the Duelund? 😉
Thanks.
Face
September 11, 2009 09:22In reference to your recent cap comparisons. You should give the Claritycap ESA a try as a coupling cap. It doesn’t compare to Duelund of course, but it has a nice warm tone to it and is very affordable. They’re also very compact in size. For a little more transparency and a little more high end tilt, the Claritycap MR is also a great coupling cap. Both are also just as impressive in speaker crossovers.
Jimmy Auw
September 11, 2009 09:23Hi Face,
Thanks for your information. Too bad when I bought all caps from PCX, they didnt carry ClarityCap. Here in my country (Indonesia), hardly to find a good caps. So I need to buy overseas. From your description, I think the ESA could be similar to Jensen. But if I could recall my brain correctly, the MR also quite expensive.
Thanks.
Face
September 11, 2009 21:06Both Madisound in the US and CapsandCoils in the Nederlands carry Claritycaps.
Jimmy Auw
September 12, 2009 01:35Yes thanks Face… But they are quite expensive, and I doubt they could beat my Duelund CAST for now…
If I got chance, perhaps, later, I will try it…
Face
September 12, 2009 01:53CAST, definitely not…CAST is king.
karl luebke
October 3, 2009 20:59hello
I read carefully your tests and comments ..
I want your advice ..
I want to change the capacitors in my phono solid-state and out of my dac
what do you advise, except Duelund too expensive for me ..
Jimmy Auw
October 3, 2009 21:22You can try Jensen Paper Tube.
Thanks.
Aradea
January 5, 2010 02:49Pak Jimmy, comparing the jensen paper tube with the duelund Cast pio
Is a bit unfair isn’t it? Price wise..
Wht don’t you compare it with the duelund VSF?
The price gap won’t be that big
IMHO
Jimmy Auw
January 6, 2010 04:07Well, I don’t have extra budget to go for VSF (and don’t know where to use it if I don’t like it).
So I only pick the best caps from each vendor (also you will ask why I didn’t try VCap OIMP and Mundorf Silver/Oil or Silver/Gold?).
Anyway, I think I have mentioned that CAST only if price is not a matter for you. For price wise, I think we are all agree that Jensen Paper Tube should work best (despite of VSF which I never had on hand). Instead, I’m ordering my CAST Silver and will be available within next 2 months. This should be more interesting than trying VSF which we all know, the performance is lower than CAST.
Thanks.
Stefano
February 25, 2010 22:09Hi Jimmy!
I’m in debt with you and your knowledge and passionate search… have a look to my Blog, at yr. convenience…
Thanks and greetings from Italy, and keep on the GOOD job, having good time;-)
Stefano
Jimmy Auw
February 25, 2010 22:29Hi Stefano,
Been at your blog for quite long time, since I receive a back-link from your blog to.
Thanks.
Jan Soldan
March 1, 2011 22:49Hi Jimmy. I have one question not directly related with your impressive capacitor comparison. On the way to ideal tube amp I think you are in Indonesia very forward. Mentioned RS241 looks very popular. Do you try or do you hear another friends experiences with substitution RS241 by RS242 or another tubes, like E.130. Technically there are very close, but I don’t know anything about sound differences.
Thanks a lot. Jan
Auw Jimmy
March 1, 2011 23:31Hi Jan,
I think RS242 is not as good as RS241, but YMMV.
Meanwhile, never heard E.130 before, so hardly to comment.
Thanks.
Nick k
December 31, 2012 07:34Hello
Like you i ve try all caps you can imagine..except duelund …ijust once have the experience with VSF (very expensive for what i heard ..but not quite sure ) anyway i want to try cast copper in the future
Whatever i want to asked have you try v-cap copper elite …AND MORE IMPORTANT … especially with v caps … try to use red cable as outer foil (normally green is the outer foil ) in my system and also other systems always v cap works far better this way i dont know why but the “normal” way they are too “cool” (i agree with you …music is not there you listen all details but not ..music !!! and of course you dont need 600 hours to understand …)
The man who make v cap suggest to try both ways …
…duelund has a mark i suppose where is the outer foil or not ??
I found also this happen to other caps ..so something happening here …
Testing hi end parts caps resistors etc ..is really interesting but sometimes i wonder!! for example mundorf… are the worst caps i ve heard but some people like them …!!! who knows
so sharing the experience it can help
REGARDS
NICK
Auw Jimmy
December 31, 2012 19:38Hi Nick,
Off course it will reduce the ‘cool effect’ when you reverse the orientation. It happens to almost all caps because you add the ‘warmer noise’ into your signal then 😉
Duelund with VSF design should not have any inner/outer orientation, as the design is based on the ‘stacked’ foil.
Mundorf is a fine caps, a little bit analytical, but I prefer them than the ‘cool’ TFTF. CuTF could be another story, though.
It could be a matter of taste preference. At this price level, all should be good, but the good ‘chef’ should always be able to serve best meal.
Thanks.
Plexus
May 15, 2013 10:29Boy, you really let the prices bias your judgement.
Auw Jimmy
May 15, 2013 11:23Hi Plexus,
If you read earlier post here:
http://jimmyauw.com/2009/08/16/extreme-capacitors-battle-1st-session/
I put independent selector to select the capacitor to run individually. And believe it or not, most of the audiences can pick their favorite blindly. The result will be the same, with or without knowing the price.
You will understand when you got chance to hear yourself 😉
Thanks.
barney
June 15, 2014 01:11I tried mundorf sgo as coupling for pre, notice the bass n lower mids is lacking.. It has about 400hrs burn in. Any advise sifu jimmy?
Auw Jimmy
June 15, 2014 19:05Hi Barney,
May I know what capacitor you are comparing with?
Thanks.
Barney
June 16, 2014 02:31Stock caps didn’t have a brand.
Original value was 1.0uf x 2 unit per channel. Is there any cons if I use 2.2uf x 2unit as I have some. So was thinking using them all 4pcs since I have them
Any cons if I bypass with 0.1uf amphohm AL pio as the Mundorf sgo didn’t have enuf midrange body n weight.
Will the music slow down ?
Tq sifu
Barney
June 16, 2014 02:35What do u think of Mundorf supreme? Do they sound edgy even after burn in?
Sorry for so many question
Auw Jimmy
June 16, 2014 08:43Hi Barney,
I see no capacitance problem if replacing 2uF to 4.4uF. So capacitance might not be an issue.
What I could predict is (I could be wrong), the original capacitor tends to sound a bit warm and less resolution. Mundorf SGO has better resolution and clearer mids. So when you are switching to SGO, normally the perception of the sonic will be lack of bass. It would take some time to settle. Even worst, if you love the bass of your previous caps (and have tuned your system based on that), bigger chance you will really miss the low frequency. No problem adding 0.1uF AmpOhm from the technical perspective. Just try it if you like the sound.
Regarding your second question, are you referring to Mundorf Supreme or Supreme SGO?
Thanks.
barney
June 16, 2014 09:24i guess ur right jimmy about the SGO. maybe i was too used to warmth sounding as they isnt much resolution previously.
with fully burnt in say 500hrs+, would you say SGO has less bass density?
* SGO really has amazing depth n width n openness soundstage. resolution superb but i realised if my equipment is not up to par, it also tends to highlight the negative part of my system too.
also what do u think of Supreme fully burnt in cap as coupling. do u think they r edgy?
Auw Jimmy
June 17, 2014 21:59Hi Barney,
I’m not saying SGO has less bass density, but it depends on where you were coming from…
Agree on that SGO could reveal some negative side of our system. That is the bad side of being transparent… 😉
All Mundorf has similarity (that’s what we call as ‘factory sound signature’). But off course the lower version will have less resolution, but I dont think you will gain a lot of bass on the Supreme.
Thanks.
Richt
May 23, 2015 22:57Hi to all !
Ive just found this blog when i was doung a google search and i agree
With the v-caps, i really like them very much, but orientation is very critical, as their website suggests, you get an impressive level of detail and definition but you loose musicality and liquidness, when you reverse them, you loose that level of definition but youin musicality and liquidness. I hope this helps. Also impedance changes with the orientation.
Audiophile life is like a rollercoaster that never stops !
Richt
May 24, 2015 00:18Hi again
Id love the v-cap hi resolution in one direction and the musicality on the other direction ! Any suggestion on how to have the best of both worlds?
Thanks
Richt
Auw Jimmy
June 7, 2015 22:37Hi Richt,
Time to change capacitor, I think 😉
Thanks.
Ronni
June 22, 2015 14:44Jimmy,
I replaced 0.22uF Jensen Pure Copper Foil Paper Tube with Duelund cast-cu copper in my SE 300B. The Duelund delivered different sound signature,agreed with your opinions,image and instrument separation is amazing.
Tried; Jensen, Mundorf SGO,VCap…Duelund is different “animal:…:)
~ronni~
Auw Jimmy
June 24, 2015 16:26Hi Ronni,
Enjoy the music…
Thanks.