Okay, okay. I’ve seen a lot of audio player enabeld phones review. But, most of them only evaluate the phone functionality, audio player interface, and etc… etc. I know that sound quality tends to be subjective (tested with ears), but it’s not a bad thing if we test the objective quality (tested with equipment), right?Few weeks ago, I borrowed two phones. One was the Nokia N91 and the other is Sony Ericsson W810i. Two are audio player enabled phone. So, let’s evaluate them.
For introduction, I don’t use sophisticated equipment like Audio Precision. It’s just a software named RMAA and a sound card as D/A. I have few cards like EMU 1820M and ESI Juli@. Both are professional cards. But for this test, I just use prosumer card the M-Audio Revolution 7.1. This card has flat enough response (+0.13, -0.07 dB, and >90 dB of noise, dynamic range, and stereo crosstalk @ 16bit/44.1 kHz). If possible, I will re-test with my EMU or Juli@, but I believe the result will not be different. The RMAA is well know an excellent software for this purpose. One time, the creator had done comparison with Audio Precision and the result was quite similiar. So, we simply can trust this software 😉
So, let’s start with overall frequency graph.
The graph above is the frequency response of N91 (white) and W810i (green).
* The N91 has little ripple than W810i, but the overall response is not so extend. The low only reach 20 Hz and sharply down below it. The frequency is raising after 20 Hz and back to 0 dB at 300 Hz. This will give extra sensation in low and mid-low frequency. Some bass instruments should have more body in N91. From 7 kHz to 19 kHz, N91 has few ripples less than 0.5 dB. Most people will not realize this problem.
* The W810i has more ripple especially in high extension. Its low extension is excellent. She reaches 8 Hz before roll-off sharply. A lot of ripples around 0.1-0.2 dB are found in most mid to high band on W810i. Started from 10 kHz, the ripples are started to get stronger to 0.4-0.5 dB. Again, this may not heard by most people. The high extension of W810i is wider than N91.
The graph below is zoomed version of low frequency segment.
In zoomed graph above, we can see that the W810i has low extension down to 9 Hz, while N91 only to 22-24 Hz. Not many headphones are able to produce such low frequency, but simply W810 has advantage here. On low band, we can see that W810i has flatter response (though with more ripples). The N91 boosts the low from 20-300 Hz to gain extra “thump” bass sensation. After 300-330 Hz, the frequency back to normal (0 dB reference level). N91 also has less ripples.
The graph below is zoomed version of mid frequency segment.
Both devices perform quite similiar. But again, W810i shows more ripples though in small value. N91 has one significant dip at 9-10 kHz (around 0.4 dB).
The graph below is zoomed version of high frequency segment.
At high frequency, the result is still similiar. W810i is still showing a lot of ripple while the N91 is quite calm. W810i has advantage on wider bandwidth (on 20 kHz @ -1.5 dB), while N91 has less bandwidth (already reach -2.5 dB at 19 kHz). I don’t think many standard headphones are capable to >19 kHz, but there’s no harm of having wider bandwidth 😉
Conclusion:
They both perform very good in terms of audio quality. Nokia N91 has advantage on smoother response, but smaller bandwidth. On the other side, Sony Ericsson W810i has wider bandwidth, but with more ripple. I don’t discuss their subjective audio quality since I believe most sites have done that for you. But for most people, I believe they both will perform as good as you can get from an audio player. Provide it with good headphones and you are ready to rock.
In terms of an audiophile grade system, this is far from good. Take a look at graph below or check my other post about sound card comparison test.
The picture above is Lynx L22 sound card frequency response. This is a profesional sound card that will cost you around $500-600. See how flat she will sound (only +0.01 and -0.01 dB deviations, very-very smooth). Okay, flat isn’t everything, but I don’t mind to have flat audio player 😉
Troels Oesteraa
September 20, 2006 22:19Hi,
You have many well-written articles in your blog, which i actually just discovered a few minutes ago… i recently tested the w810i with RMAA using an RME Digi 96/8 Pad soundcard (extremely flat freq. response), but i am getting much higher “peaks” than you do: http://users.cybercity.dk/~dsl35822/RMAA/w810i/comparison.htm
How did you measure the phones? I need to amp the signal because the level from the phone is too low, but no matter what amp i used, the spikes were the same. My firmware is R4CE012, if that makes a difference.
Do you remember/or still have the rest of the RMAA results ?(Noise, Dynamic Range, THD+N, IMD, IMD Swept, and crosstalk)
best regards,
Troels
Jimmy Auw
September 21, 2006 00:43Hi there,
Thanks for your comment.
Actually (in my own experience testing such low level output device), is to make the output adequate the feed your measurement device input. It usually has not enough output to be measured by our measurement device (like RME, or others professional card).
You have three solution for this.
1. Use a flat pre-amp (no need for amplifier) to adjust the gain of the card.
2. Use software to adjust the gain.
3. Use non-professional card.
I’ve tried those three and option #2 or #3 is more feasible to be done.
I’ll explain some…
#1: Hard to find such flat pre-amp. If you are not sure, try to bench your RME with and without the flat pre-amp. If you get same/near same result, then the pre-amp could be used for this purpose. If not, better skip this option or find another flat one. I’ve ever used Jomeek (mic/line pre-amp) and didn’t make it 🙁 Maybe I’ve made mistake configuring the Jomeek or something, but finally I didn’t use this option.
#2: Use software. Bench your W810i though you didn’t reach the “safe” green RMAA level (-2dB or something? I forget). Usually, the level should reach -10 or -8 dB only (as you’ve said, the W810i doesn’t have enough output). Don’t push the W810i volume too high, about 90% should do. And force the RMAA test to run. Use option to save the resulted wave file. Then, open the resulted WAV on audio editor program (I prefer WaveLab or Adobe Audition). Then, choose option to normalize the file. Re-open the WAV on RMAA. You should be able to read the result. Remember this way may affect the other result (DR/Noise/THD, etc), except the frequency response. Since my idea is to measure the frequency response only, so this option should be sufficient for my need.
#3: Use the best non-professional card. Why? Because such card offers line-in adjustment (pre-amp inside). I believe this pre-amp is quite flat for best non-pro card. You can boost some gain inside your card to match the low output of your W810i. That’s why I keep my M-Audio Revolution 7.1 😉 I’ve post the RMAA result of the M-Audio and other cards I’ve tested. Please check it out to check whether this card should do the job perfectly or not. I used this way on testing the W810i and N91.
I still have the Revolution along with my ESI Juli@ and EMU 1820M. For evaluating such low level output device, I prefer to set up my Revolution thatn my Juli@ or 1820M.
About your problem, have you ever tried to measure your RME loopback with your amplifier on the chain? I mean, maybe the problem came from your LM6172 amplifier. Perhaps it produces the noise?
Thanks.
Troels Oesteraa
September 23, 2006 22:58Hi again, and thanks for the in-depth reply.
I discarded option 1 as i don’t know anyone who has one and buying one just for this measurement, is.. well.. yeah. 😉 But it is a good idea none-the-less.
As to #2:
I used Cool edit pro 2.1 (~Adobe Audition) to normalize, but the frequency response looks exactly the same minus a little bass roll-off compared to the earlier measurements with the amp. The amp is DC offset protected, hence the roll-off (-0.7dB at 20Hz) but otherwise it’s very linear.
I tried with an onboard soundcard, an average run of the mill of course, but couldn’t get any proper results, except that the frequency response had a tendency to fluctuate as before. I’ll find some pci soundcards to try out instead later. There’s a jumper to adjust pre-amp levels on the input of the rme to either +4dBu or -10dBV, but it was already in the +4dBu position.
Sony Ericsson released different types of firmware for the W800 and W810. Some contain the famous “digital artifacts” at low playback volume, so it seems they have great control of how well the device should perform. I’m using the default 1. edition of the firmware for the w810 only (R4CE012).. do you remember what firmware your W810 in the test had? 🙂
Thank you
Jimmy Auw
September 24, 2006 03:05If that so, I guess the different firmware version may affect the result somehow.
The pre-amp input I think should be set to -10dBV since you are using non-professional (unbalanced connection). If you are connecting your W810i to professional pre-amp with unbalanced-to-balanced converter, then you should set your rme to +4dBV.
I’ll check the firmware tomorrow, since I borrow it from my colleague.
If you have tried with other standard PCI sound card and still got the same result, then I think we have “different” W810i… either in terms of firmware or maybe hardware revision… We got to check it later to make sure whether different hardware/firmware revision will affect the sound quality… interesting eh? 🙂
Thanks for you reply.
Troels Oesteraa
October 4, 2006 18:04Hello again,
Here’s a bench with a cruddy SBLive value…
http://users.cybercity.dk/~dsl35822/RMAA/w810i/Sblive.html
it doesn’t change the frequency response to make it look like your graph, even though the analog input of the sblive seems to be ok.
I have a problem, and that is that i can’t ugrade the original firmware of the w810i to the latest release, SEUS tells me that no recent releases exist, even though a plethora of updates has been released since R4CE012. I have seen a lot of people with the same problem. I contacted S/E who sent my feedback to the technical department in Sweden, so they will get back to me, and hopefully i’d be able to update it to make a new bench with different firmware 🙂
Did you get to check the firmware? 🙂
Thanks
Jimmy Auw
October 5, 2006 03:41Seems that the problem comes from the device itself. Maybe we have different hardware? I’m located at Asia (Indonesia) and you at Europe. Different hardware revision probably? If the problem comes from different hardware revision (not the firmware), I think it’s gonna be difficult to be solved.
Mine is R4CF002.
Thanks.
Prasanna
February 27, 2007 08:47Hi
I brought SE W810i ,
I am sorry to say that i am not happy with the sound of it,i was previously haveing w550i i thought w810i is an advanced of it, and made a deare to buy it,but i am sorry to say that w810i sucks,
Please reply and suggest me how good i can increase the sound quality and volume,
Let me know if there are any players or software to reduce my problem
Thanks
Prasanna Salimath
09886641169
INDIA
Troels Oesteraa
March 17, 2007 01:20Hi again… It’s hard to believe so much time has passed since i last posted.
Somebody made me aware that there is a large difference in sound quality between the default HPM-70 cable that comes with the W810 and 3rd party cables on ebay… not counterfeits, but short cables with only a female mini-jack and no microphone as in the HPM-70. I.e. the 3rd party cables are much better.
What cable do you have, and did you test it with this?
Best Regards,
Troels Oesteraa
Jimmy Auw
March 20, 2007 12:05Hi,
I tested with the HPM-70.
Thanks.
vishwajeet
August 29, 2007 14:51Hi
I brought SE W810i ,
I am sorry to say that i am not happy with the sound of it,i was previously haveing w550i i thought w810i is an advanced of it, and made a deare to buy it,but i am sorry to say that w810i sucks,
Please reply and suggest me how good i can increase the sound quality and volume,
Let me know if there are any players or software to reduce my problem
Thanks
vishwajeet
August 29, 2007 14:52Hi
I brought SE W810i ,
I am sorry to say that i am not happy with the sound of it,i was previously haveing w550i i thought w810i is an advanced of it, and made a deare to buy it,but i am sorry to say that w810i sucks,
Please reply and suggest me how good i can increase the sound quality and volume,
Let me know if there are any players or software to reduce my problem
Thanks
vishwajeet
ph. 9960340736
Jimmy Auw
August 29, 2007 16:05You can try upgrading the firmware…
Saqib
October 30, 2007 01:36Please reply and suggest me how good i can increase the sound quality and volume,
Let me know if there are any players or software to reduce my problem
Thanks
KaczorPL
January 3, 2008 03:50Saqib
You need to get the audio driver, search on SE forums, i use this:
Acoustic_Mix_By_Black_Ice_V.4.2_HS
and it works great.
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July 20, 2008 23:11Nice blog, i have added it to my favourites, greetings