Indonesia High End Audio Club (IHEAC) arranges a ‘grand prix’ to encourage DIY community to build and show their best product. There will be several blind test and each session will have 3 winners with different points rewarded. At the end of the year, the highest point accumulated shall be the first winner, etc (just like F1 race which will have the winner at the end of season).
The first session was DAC, which quite interesting as not much DIY touched this part. Probably because it’s not too easy to play with digital circuit.
Not too much photos in this session as most of the contenders are similar (silver or black boring box, without any interesting part to be shown).
Below wass the main stage. We could see Vienna Acoustics Mozart Grand as main speaker.
The amplifier was Air Tight ATM-3 which has 6x 6CA7 each channel producing 55W in Triode or 110W in Ultralinear. Quite convincing to drive most of your speaker choice. It’s vintage appearance also has its own class. Probably you don’t want to hear its price? 😉 Retail price is around US$ 17.000.
Although I believe we could use some higher class source as reference, but as this was DAC contest, then the source better remained at standard level. We left this job to Marantz CD5001.
As preamp, we picked VTL TL 5.5. This 12AX7/12AT7 line stage preamp got quite high reputation for its nice sounding stuff. It has 6 inputs, muting function, and also optional MC/MM Phono Stage (which would cost you around US$ 750 more). The preamp itself costs around US$ 3500.
The first winners was PCM1704 (equipped with PMD100 as Digital Filter), followed by TDA1545 (single chip), and TDA1541 S2 (double crown). I didn’t take any photo as mostly you would only see black and silver box. I didn’t have enough passion to shoot them 🙂
I took another shoot of the ATM-3. Air Tight always has simple, neat, and beautiful design. Just see this plain face plate, but occupied with a very functional bias meter on the center. It has dimmed orange back light which pour an extra wine for vintage lover.
edi suwanto
March 10, 2012 01:51this stupid job, select the source. marantz CD5001. using entry level. whether the guarantee is to read well and detail, to be distributed to the DAC. how to assess the DAC, it can work well. laughter
Auw Jimmy
March 10, 2012 19:27Hi Pak Edi,
Basically, I believe we have better option or higher class CD Player.
The idea of external DAC is to improve the internal DAC on the CDP itself. So a mediocre source, as long they capable to produce bit perfect digital out, should be sufficient. I’m saying ‘bit perfect’ as there are some ‘unreliable’ player out there which modify the digital out. This is not acceptable.
If we use a good-to-excellent CD Player (which mostly has good DAC also), what is the point of using external DAC?
Anyway, there is always a controversy for every competition. Just enjoy the music 🙂
Thanks.
Anonymous
March 13, 2012 00:45Hallo Pak Jimmy,
sorry if my comments are not convenient for you, the pages you write, so great and expensive support systems (Air Tight ATM-3, VTL TL 5.5 and Vienna Acoustics Mozart Grand).
And choice for the cdp, It is the ratio reversed.
if we want to get a DAC to function properly would give a good resource as well. because it was pitiful to participants who may still be more and more to show its performance DAC.
And of course if we compare better with a good DAC and above average. so that we can more easily compare whether DAC attendees can approach or equal. and not how far beyond the reference? ( Cirrus Logic CS 4392 D/A converter)
Perhaps by analogy: the car – ferrari in race with Inova on damaged roads and perforated. What could ferrari show that optimal perfomance. which is likely to lose.
I understand hard to make the event BT.
and I applaud the committee already want to go through, for DIY
“just enjoy the music”
I am a fan of you for your review.
best regards
Auw Jimmy
March 13, 2012 10:40Hi Pak,
It’s good to share and feedback. Let me advise some idea – feel free to critic or anything.
First of all, I wasn’t the committee of the contest, so what I’m talking is purely from my point of view.
Your analogy about the car and road is not really appropriate with this case – again, this is from my point of view. Why? Allow me to explain.
First, the road is the part that the car will ride and show his performance and may affect the possibility of winning the race. Correct, on bumpy road, the Innova could win against Ferrari (so the road will affect the winner). But in this CDP as digital source in our audio context, at least from my experience and point of view, no matter whether you will use standard CDP or even more expensive CDP (as long they capable to produce bit perfect digital out), the winner mostly will not change significantly, although it might impact the overall final sound quality. Maybe with standard CDP, I would rate “DAC A” with 7 points and “DAC B” with 6 points. With better CDP as digital source, maybe I would rate “DAC A” with 8.5 points and “DAC B” with 7 points. But I don’t think I could reverse the score dramatically (like “DAC A” becomes 6 and “DAC B” becomes 8) by changing this CDP (unless there is something which non-standard or not correct). Well, there is no exact conclusion before real listening test actually – so this is only based on my experience. CMIIW.
Second, I would put analogy for the “road” as “preamp-amp-speaker”. Why? Because if you are using TDA1541 DAC for example (which has more romantic sound), the decision to use faster and more dynamic preamp-amp-speaker, could lead an advantage for this DAC. Definitely, if the DAC is changed to AD1865 or newer AKM/Wolfson/etc, the result will change dramatically (really you can drop down the top downed to the mid even bottom on the table with different preamp-amp-speaker). This is similar with your analogy for the car. We could put Ferrari to the bottom of the table if they have to pass small and bumpy road.
Third, if you want to pick analogy for the CDP as digital source in automotive context, I would agree to choose “driver”, instead of “road”. Why? No matter you give Ferrari or “angkot” or “metromini” to Schumacher or Alonso. They will beat us with single hand (not that worst ha~~~). Probably they will beat us 20 seconds when driving Ferrari, while only 10 seconds when driving “angkot” or “metromini” (well, no traction control, ABS, EBD, bla-bla-bla, only ‘guts’ will play biggest contribution). Again, I doubt we can pass their driving skill, only the final score probably will different (like my previous example judging “DAC A” with 7 points with lower grade CDP, but could be higher to 8.5 points with better CDP).
Fourth, if you set too high standards as reference, then it’s gonna be not too convenient also for the whole event. It’s not gonna be funny if most of the contenders beaten up by the reference system 🙂 It’s ok actually, but I think the standard better to be set ‘on the par’ level with what we are competiting at (again example giving Ferrari to us is not as appropriate as giving Ferrari to Schumacher or Alonso – although I don’t mind testing the Ferrari though:). Except, on some ‘closed serious event’ which the contenders mostly comes with their high class armament, then usually we can arrange something different. But definitely this kind of contest is sort a rare and not open for public.
Again, I’m not defending one side or the other. Just try to give my objective point of view. I could be wrong though 🙂
Thanks.
edi suwanto
March 14, 2012 02:40thank you for your explanation which is quite deep.
I question, why the support systems are expensive (U.S. $ 17,000 + U.S. $ 3500 and i do not know how priece Vienna Acoustics Mozart Grand), to be anti-climactic.
I do not say that the preamp, amp, and speakers as a road, (I just tried to link with your review “just like F1 race”).
and I may not be appropriate to the analogy, it is.
but with sources who may not be flat and, perforated. This will affect the overall performance of the show which DAC to work properly.
if so then I would look for marantz cd5001, for the source of my system.
because it is very good and recomended to the player.
because I am more confused, to determine the cd player that I want to buy.
because why should I buy oracle 1500.MK II if I can get perfect results with just a Marantz cd 5001.But perhaps with the same serial number (although reversed) so I think the result would be just as same well.
thank you
best regards
Auw Jimmy
March 14, 2012 11:55Hi Pak,
Maybe speak in Bahasa will be easier ya? 🙂
Vienna harganya sekitar 25-30jt-an, so around $3000.
Mungkin Bapak belum tahu kalo sistem yang dipakai biasanya ditawarkan oleh pihak sponsor (tentunya sponsor ini netral karena acaranya DIY, bukan barang pabrikan). Jadi ya kalo ada tawaran barang bagus, mengapa tidak dipakai? Toh secara logika sangat masuk akal kita menggunakan sistem yang sangat bagus di belakang rantai yang diuji. Dalam hal ini pengujian DAC, maka rantai setelah DAC yaitu preamp-amp-speaker akan lebih baik jika kita menggunakan yang kualitasnya bagus agar semua detail bisa diproyeksikan dengan sebaik2-nya.
Nah hal yang berlawanan bisa terjadi di rantai depan dari barang yang akan diuji. Ada beberapa pertimbangan seperti yang sudah saya jelaskan di post sebelumnya (mungkin menyesuaikan dengan kelas DAC yang ditest, atau faktor lainnya).
Sekedar gambaran.
Contoh output dari sound card yang digital outputnya TIDAK bit perfect.
http://audio.rightmark.org/test/audigy/creative-audigy-1644-digital.html
Contoh output dari sound card yang digital outputnya bit perfect.
http://audio.rightmark.org/test/philips-ae/philips-1644-spdif-out.html
Sekedar gambaran, sound card Philips ini sekitar tahun 2000 (sudah 12 tahun silam) dan dijual dengan harga $99. Tidak butuh source sekelas $1000 koq sekedar untuk dapatkan digital out yang bit perfect, tapi tidak dipungkiri source yang $1000 biasanya lebih minim error dkk-nya dalam hal output digitalnya.
Jadi kembali lagi ke post saya sebelumnya. Digital out, selama tidak bermasalah (alias bisa bit perfect), maka outputnya hampir dipastikan flat dan tidak perforated atau distorted. Betul ada faktor lain seperti jitter, dkk, tapi seperti saya sudah jelaskan juga, ini akan terbawa ke DAC sekalian. Kalo jelek, ya DAC-nya akan ikutan jadi jelek dan sebaliknya.
Jadi kalo kita pakai source dengan harga $300, mungkin “DAC A” akan dapat nilai 5, “DAC B” akan dapat nilai 7.
Dengan source yang lebih baik, misal $1000, mungkin “DAC A” akan dapat nilai 6.5, “DAC B” akan dapat nilai 8.5.
Karena ya kalo kita bicara digital out berarti error jitter dkk yang terjadi akan terbawa ke DAC juga. Dan ini akan kepengaruh di output. Sebaliknya kalo source kita buat lebih bagus lagi, maka error akan lebih minim, tetap DAC yang lebih bagus akan bersuara lebih bagus. Mungkin “DAC A” akan terangkat juga poin penilaiannya dengan source yang lebih bagus ($1000) daripada pake source yang $300. Akan tetapi dengan source yang $1000 juga, pastinya “DAC B” akan ikut terangkat. Kecil kemungkinan “DAC B” akan terbanting poin-nya karena penggunaan source yang lebih bagus.
Pertimbangan yang lain yang mungkin masuk akal adalah source yang “sedang-sedang” saja (selama bit perfect) akan membuat kompetisi menjadi semakin menarik karena kualitas DAC onboard di CDP tadi akan tertantang untuk dikalahkan. Apa menariknya kalo kita gunakan Audio Aero, misalnya? Bisa-bisa DAC DIY yang dibuat jadi serasa tidak enak semua?
Kalo Bapak jadi kepengen beli CD5001 karena anggapannya “sudah cukup” ya menurut saya itu salah kaprah dan kebiasaan orang Indonesia yang “beli karena liat saja”, bukan karena paham apa yang dia beli. Jangankan yang CD5001, preamp-amp-speaker yang mahal dan digunakan saja belum tentu yang terbaik kok. Yang benar adalah untuk awal kalo mau pake DAC, cukup beli source yang digital out-nya bagus (bisa bit perfect). Jika suatu saat Bapak upgrade ke CEC atau bahkan Audio Aero, saya yakin akan dapat improvement – even dengan DAC yang sama. Tapi bukan berarti source-nya jadi asal2an (nanti muncul pertanyaan kenapa tidak sekalian beli DVD Player saja). Tapi saya yakin ketika seseorang sanggup beli CEC atau Audio Aero (setelah sebelumnya pake CD5001), sudah pasti DAC-nya akan diganti juga kelasnya yang lebih tinggi lagi.
Anyway, saya tidak mewakili siapapun karena bukan panitia maupun pihak yang berkaitan menentukan perangkat yang digunakan. So ini murni pendapat saya pribadi yang bisa saja tidak benar. Kalo Bapak mau tahu alasan detailnya, rasanya lebih baik kontak panitia (namanya ada di iklan acara tersebut).
Thanks.
edi suwanto
March 14, 2012 13:59hallo Pak Jimmy
MAAF ya Pak Jimmy kalau komentar saya terlalu provokatif.
He……… he………. cuman saya gak tahan Pak Jimmy waktu baca Laman Anda ( karena saya sering buka laman anda dan termasuk penggemar akan tulisan tulisan anda ), membaca begitu mahal nya perangkat tersebut tapi koq cuman dikasih “maaf” cdp yg sangat jauh bila dibandingkan harga perangkat yg lain.
walau mungkin harga bukan segalanya terhadap kwalitas tapi paling tidak kwalitas yang baik tentu harganya juga “baik”.
ini sepertinya memberikan “kesan” gak serius.
Karena menurut saya kalau bisa sedikit lebih baik memilih sumber untuk mengimbangi yg mahal tadi”tentunya akan dapat mudah membedakan perangkat DAC nya. (ini analogi sederhana saya pribadi yang awam sama hitungan teknis )
“jadinya protes sama Pak Jimmy yg hanya reportase acara ini ya.bukan ke panitia.”Habis seringnya bukanya web ini Ha…. ha…..ha….)
ini komentar spontan saja Pak. terima kasih ya atas saran dan ulasannya.
terima kasih
Auw Jimmy
March 14, 2012 14:19Hi Pak Edi,
It’s OK koq 🙂
Memang seperti saya bilang, kalo CDP-nya diupgrade, hampir pasti akan lebih bagus suaranya. Tapi seperti saya sudah bilang juga, kemungkinan peringkat pemenangnya toh tidak akan berbeda jauh. Yang juara 1 kemungkinan tetap 1 dan yang juara bontot mungkin akan di bawah juga 🙂
Ya pastilah ada yang bilang, koq enggak sekalian semuanya mahal? 🙂
Ya kemungkinan jawabannya dua:
1. Enggak ada sponsor CDP (saya yakin sih enggak susah dapatin CDP yang kelasnya lebih tinggi, bahkan bisa pinjem ke pengguna koq)
2. Memang disesuaikan dengan kelas barang yang ditandingkan (sekali lagi kalo preamp-amp-speaker karena tandingnya ini DAC, maka mutlak dipake yang bagus karena ini ibarat alat yang akan menilai). Kalo yang dipake CEC atau Audio Aero, ntar DAC-nya kebanting semua. Ujung2nya pada protes lagi. Ga fair katanya kalo tandingannya sama CDP mahal.
Namanya juga kompetisi, dari pengalaman saya sih selalu ada aja komentar miring he he he.
Saya sih mencoba menanggapi positif saja, setidaknya masih masuk akal. Kalo acaranya sampe pake DVD Player baru saya no comment deh.
Terima kasih.
Russel
March 29, 2012 20:11Hi…. everybody
I just new follower in this blog.
Is quite interesting and i just want give a little bit (my)opinion about this issue.
I feel everybody so serious talking about price of the equipment and the brand.
From my experience brand and price is not the main problems for good quality. Yes i understand and agreed if some people will complaint and said that big name (brand) and expensive will have better quality. But is not meaning the cheaper price and no name brand will lesser quality than the big name (expensive).
From my experience i saw that is so many people already judge (in they are mine)the system even haven’t listen the system, that the quality must be good because they see the brand and know the price. For me this physiology judgement.
So for this issue about the CD player, for me is OK we use any kind of CD player because what we test is D/A converter and my logic is simple if with low quality CD player they can perform in good quality so if we use better quality CD player it will automatically can perform better quality too. I think D/A converter don’t have any brain or physiology. D/A converter work for change the digital signal become analog signal so what ever detail or not detail the input digital signal it will still change become analog signal and off course with more detail digital signal it will produce more detail analog signal.
Good quality D/A converter is about how good they change the digital signal become analog signal.
Thanks